Monday, November 28, 2011

Monsters, Incorporated

In the news last week, I read a story about the "wrong twin fetus" having been "terminated" in Australia. The staff "treating" the woman accidentally killed the healthy baby, not the one who had a congenital heart defect. Notice the demented wording to make more palatable the fact that a mother KILLED her own CHILD in her WOMB, which should be the safest place on planet earth for any baby, but is the most dangerous.



Basically, since there was a chance the baby might not make it, the parents and doctors decided to go ahead and kill him/her. Yes, that makes a lot of sense. What if the baby survived and needed surgery? Was that just too much to go through for the evil parents, so kill the baby by injecting it with poison instead? I wonder if this monster of a mother has any elderly relatives that have needed heart surgery to keep them going - would she rather they had just been "put down" like she did with her child?

Once they realized the wrong twin had been killed, "[t]he woman went on to have an emergency caesarean to end the life of the sick foetus." I cannot believe this means what it seems it mean - that the sick baby was intentionally delivered, and then left to die because nobody provided life-saving measures appropriate for premature babies.  

Sadly, such is the reality of "selective reduction". I have blogged on this subject before, such as when a "doctor" in Florida "accidentally also killed the "wrong" twin, and not for the first time. It couldn't be that he is just a sick, perverted, sadistic mass-murdering abortion doctor who would rather kill two humans than one, oh no, not at all.

Another monster of a mother I have blogged about in the past is a vile woman in South Africa. I would link back to her but last I looked at her webpage several years ago, it was filled with so many expletives I cannot in good conscience link to her. It won't be hard for you to find her website on your own - she is an internet celebrity of sorts because I guess to some, perverts like her are intriguing. You can read my previous post about her here. She basically went through round after round of IVF, killing 80 babies in the process. She eventually became pregnant with quads, and "selectively reduced" two of them. Then she went into premature labor with the remaining twins, and lost both, which she was bemoaning. Ha - I''m sure. "Have pity on me because I only wanted to kill 82 of my children, not 84!" Sick! 

Of course, my assessment when I read her reproductive history was that the woman was not infertile at all, just that it would have taken her body some time to bounce back from having been on hormonal birth control for a decade or more. This monster did eventually end up with a set of twins, which she was not deserving of. She referred to her young son by an expletive that, while befitting her, I would never use. But oh, oh, oh, did she get her knickers in a twist over me calling her a monster.

At the time of the post, I did not know that I would be proven right regarding her self-inflicted and temporary infertility a couple of years later, when the woman spontaneously became pregnant. Upon sharing the news with her husband, his loving response was "You f****** [expletive]". At first I thought, what a jerk. Then I saw things from his perspective. This guy has gone through all these fertility treatments with his wife, which does at some point in each cycle require his "contribution". This is something he may likely have resented because it reduced him to the status of a donor, with the doctor doing his (the husband's) part. He had to put of with his wife being a hormonally imbalanced jerk for years. She calls him terrible names and mocks and ridicules him on her blog on a regular basis, although I think, in their family, words that I never use are considered terms of endearment. I'm sure eventually they went on to spay/neuter themselves to avoid such nasty accidents as a pregnancy in the future. Who knows, maybe they have divorced since, because like I said I have not been to her website in a couple of years.

Lastly, I stumbled upon an article in The Washington Post from some time back that follows a couple of days in the life of Mark Evans, a "doctor" that regularly does "selective reductions".

The face of evil

On his website, the pervert has no inhibitions in talking about his monstrous "procedures for patients starting with between 2 to as many as 12 fetuses". Yes, he will even reduce a twin pregnancy to a singleton if that is what the "parents" want. 

Of course, most of his clients ended up with an inordinate number of babies due to IVF (think: Octomom), but others like the lesbian couple in the article are a result of a donor and fertility drugs. Wow, the scum of humanity all brought together in this pregnancy. 

The nurse at this clinic was even sicker than the doctor, because she actually tried to justify herself:
"I don't particularly like doing the reductions," she said. "I find it very stressful. With every patient, I think, If it was me, what would I do? Some of these people tried to get pregnant for the past five years and prayed to God. And now that they are pregnant, they are telling God: You gave me too many. I sometimes feel like we are playing God, and that is very emotionally stressful."
Greenbaum, who is Jewish, takes seriously her religion's admonition not to take a life. What sustains her, she said, is the knowledge that the reductions she has been involved with were done for sound medical reasons. She would never, she said, work at an abortion clinic. "This is as close as I would get," she said. "Here, it is completely different. You are helping people have healthy babies."
Still, she says: "It's a very hard procedure, because the baby is moving, and you are chasing it. That is what is very emotional -- when the baby is moving and you are chasing it.
"Do you still feel emotional?" she asked Evans.
"I've come to look at it as: The finished product has a much better chance of surviving," replied Evans, who had been following the conversation intently. "Look, you never want to dehumanize it, because then you get cavalier. You have to keep the big picture in mind. We're not losing one. We're saving some."
Sure. Very reasonable.You'd think with her Jewish background, she would take issue to such mass-murder of "inferior" beings.

All this, why? Because it pays well. Taking human life for money. Monsters, Incorporated. There is a place in hell for reprobates like this.

125 comments:

  1. I totally and utterly agree with you completely in this blog post. I am astonished at how this woman can seriously justify what she is doing as something good for the world. This world we live in is so sick. Some days I feel like there is no hope in this world and every one is nuts and twisted in their thinking. But then I find people who have blogs like yours and I find out that there are thankfully God fearing Bible believing Christians like you and your family.

    I love reading your blog! You inspire me :-)

    Sarah

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  2. You sure are quick to judge the actions of people who have had to make a devastating choice that you, so far, have never had to make. I hope that all your future pregnancies continue to go smoothly, and that you never have to face the kind of devastating agony of trying to decide what would be best for your terminally ill, suffering child.

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  3. Marley, yes, I am. In fact, God has already judged these people. It is not a choice that I will EVER have to make. Because if the child is terminally ill, guess what? It will die. If it is not, it will live. So why would I ever need to sit and wonder, "Hm, should I kill my child in case it might die?" You're a pervert yourself if you sympathize with infanticide.

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  4. Thank you for linking to this story Zsuzsanna. "Monsters Incorporated"...I agree completely!

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  5. So what gives you the right to judge them? You say God has judged them, but are you God? Just because God has judged them, that means you can too? Zsuzanna, maybe you need to go back and read Matt 7. You claim these women are playing God but you're doing the exact same thing by judging them. It is not your place to judge.

    I've been in the position where I had to watch God bring my newborn child back to Him. My son was born alive and due to a deformity of his spine, in great pain. My son's life, from the moment he was born to the moment he died (a total of about two minutes) was pain. I wish my son could have died without pain. Sometimes I think that if I could go back, I would release my child into God's arms before he ever knew such needless pain.

    Since you apparently fully understand God and are even able to judge in His place, does that make me a pervert?

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  6. Agree completely. This is what happens when people try to play God, and when they focus on the outcome rather than the process. If we take care of the process (doing the right thing in every circumstance), we can trust God to take care of the outcome. When we decide that we can do anything to obtain a desired outcome, this is the horror that ensues.

    And also, Marley - I would agree with Zsuzsanna's response to your comment. There does not need to be an agony of decision over a terminally ill child. Simply provide the best possible care to both mother and baby, and let God take care of the outcome (whether or not the child lives or dies). The decision of whether or not to end life has not been given to us - it belongs exclusively to God. That is a burden which He has not asked us to bear (for which I am thankful!).

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  7. You're no doubt going to get a lot of flack for this post because you speak the truth. A lot of people can't handle the truth. If we would stop trying to play God and let Him do His job this world would be a much better place.

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  8. Zsuzsanna, honest question. Do you ever wonder if people whose souls you're trying to win might be turned off by all the anger you used in your posts? Would it not be better to have a calmer discussion about these issues- a "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar" thing? Abortion is wrong, but posts like this won't make it go away- helping pregnant women will. And more people will turn to Christ if they see the love and forgiveness of Christians, not the hate. You yourself used the pill back in the day, as your husband says in his sermon- can't you extend forgiveness to those who have made similar mistakes?

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  9. It just makes me sick, how horrible!!! People always are concerned with how many soldiers are being killed, when 100's of babies are killed each day, by evil and selfish people. It is very sad. There are millions of couples who would adopt a newborn, and give it a good life, but they kill it instead. Monsters is the perfect name for them.

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  10. High order multiples from IVF is unusual since most doctors will transfer only a low number of embryos. High order multiples will usually result from fertility drugs with or without IUI (think Kate whoever) and the Iowa people and pretty much everyone but the woman you mentioned. That doctor should not have transferred that many and most REs consider anything higher than twins a failure.

    You should at least have the facts.

    Tertia is still married.

    Christine

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  11. I do not think you understand what the word "pervert" means. But then again, reading this blog, I'm pretty sure you don't understand a lot of things.

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  12. As a future doctor and being relatively well versed in human development, (first year medical student,) I can tell you with some level of authority that a fetus is not just a baby who happens to not have been born yet. There are many noted physiological differences between a living, breathing baby and a partially developed fetus. Terminating a pregnancy is not infanticide. And if I was told at some point during my pregnancy that my child had a severe abnormality that made him incompatible with life, and likely to suffer agonizing pain, I can safely say that I have no idea what I would do. I would want to save the fetus from as much suffering as possible. And if that means that God would send me to hell for doing what I believe is right for my fetus and saving him from unspeakable pain, then that's not the kind of god I'd want much to do with.

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    1. I completely agree.

      ANJ

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  13. Zsuzsanna, I love this post, although it made me cry. All those precious babies are in the arms of Jesus, which is comforting to me.

    Marley, there is NO CHOICE. God chooses. If/when we are lucky enough to get pregnant then we do everything possible to sustain the life God has granted us the privilege of bearing. If the baby dies, it is God's choice. Never ours. There are miracles, all the time. Babies who have defects "incompatible with life" are just fine. Of course, many babies are not fine. God chooses. It is not our place to kill an innocent child because it might be a nuisance to raise a sick baby. That is beyond disgusting.

    in His peace,
    Miriam

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  14. You know, I'm not even disagreeing with you? What I do disagree with is the fact that you are judging your brothers and sisters in such a hate-filled manner. Do you think that God actually appreciates you calling His stumbling children monsters, perverts and irredeemable? Or for that manner, that you are daring to judge at all? We know that we all sin, sometimes grievously. It is not our place to judge, however. That is stated very clearly in the Bible: WE will be judged for daring to presume. Given that, it *is* possible to state one's position firmly and with love, without, again, usurping His prerogative.

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  15. I just want to let you know that hospital named in the Australian article are still wonderful and generally provide excellent care. (Although no one here has said anything negative regarding them, I feel the hospital as a whole should not take a negative wrap.)
    I had the good fortune to have a wonderful low intervention VBAC there early this year when no other local hospital would see me. My wishes and needs were catered to, and I was treated with the utmost respect. (Home birth, despite being my preference was simply not an option.)
    While I never met any of the staff in question, I ask you to not condemn the hospital as a whole. Their care and provision of services are generally without fault.

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  16. Before I get another comment from people who apparently would just as soon do away with our judgmental judiciary system, please read this related post:

    http://stevenandersonfamily.blogspot.com/2009/01/on-judging-hating-and-name-calling_15.html

    Save yourself the embarrassment of showing everyone how ignorant of the Bible you are.

    Canuck,

    if you heard of a parent torturing their child to death for their own selfish reasons, it ought to anger you. And no, I don't think it is "turning people away". People need to realize that what they have done is wicked and wrong. I never implied that people who have an abortion or take birth control pills are reprobates unable to get saved. Nor did I attack anyone in this post for taking birth control pills.

    But abortion doctors, who are nothing but mass murderers like Hitler and Stalin, are reprobates because they have been turned into animals and are no longer normal humans.

    Yesterday afternoon, when I had many other pressing things to do, I took time out of my busy day to go door-to-door with the gospel. One 17-year old girl got saved, and asked us to give her a ride to church at night, but her mom would not let her because she needed her to babysit. Instead, we dropped off a Bible for her after church. Another man we invited while out door-to-door asked for a ride, we picked him up, he got saved at church, and got a Bible. He is excited about coming back again. These are just a couple of examples. Our church leads many others to Christ every single week. The world does not need sweetness and light, it needs people who are willing to open the Bible and share the gospel.

    Good luck trying to find much of a vocal opinion like mine on the internet. Since society is going to hell in a hand basket, it must not be because there are too many people like me in the world.

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  17. Marley, "doctors" like you think you will be (1st year is very early, it is not likely you will make it through medical school, thank God) are doing the work of Satan. The way you think is completely depraved.

    Zsuzsanna, I apologize for hi-jacking your blog. If you don't publish this comment I will completely understand.

    in His peace,
    Miriam

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  18. Marley, if you have a child who is healthy and that child suffers a horrible accident or becomes severly ill, causing much pain to the child; if that child suddenly needs constant care and does not fit our definition of "perfect" what do you do with that child? Do you send him/her away? Do you hope he/she stops breathing? I always wonder about the parents who will abort an "imperfect" baby; I wonder what that says about how they will react to a living child becoming "imperfect" and "inconvenient." Does unconditional love only begin when our children have emerged from our wombs?

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  19. Marley, you said "I would want to save the fetus from as much suffering as possible." If the fetus is not a life yet, then why are you worried about it suffering pain? Why would something that isn't alive feel pain?
    God decides who lives and dies, He is GOD. We are in no way on the same level as the one who created us. HE made us and He will decide if we should live or not. It doesn't matter if you want nothing to do with God, God decides what is right or wrong, not you. I do not think this post is hateful. Haven't you heard the saying- "evil prevails when good men do nothing." We should be angry about evil like this happening. I think something is wrong with you if you don't think anything is wrong with babies being murdered. Most babies aborted do not have something wrong with them. The parents (monsters) are selfish and don't want them. It's sad they don't love their own flesh and blood enough to give it up for adoption, and give it a chance at life. No killing it is the best thing (eye roll). Why do people that think abortion is ok, also get outraged when a infant is murdered? If the child was in the mothers womb it would be ok, but the second it's not it is wrong? People that are against spanking but are for abortion, same thing. Why do you care if a child is spanked, but if the mom wanted she could have killed the child in her womb. People don't understand how stupid they sound. This garbage has been pumped into their head for so long. They have bought into the worlds total disregard to life. What is wrong with you people!

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  20. So what if your child might have a heart defect, does that mean it deserves to die? I have know babies born with heart defects and spinabifita. They both had surgery and both are living a happy and normal life now. They bring much joy to their parents, and are very much loved. If their parents would have been monsters and killed their child just because they weren't perfect, these precious children would not be here. If your child gets cancer at age 5 are you going to kill them? That is the same thing. Love your children no matter what, not just if they are perfect!

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  21. It is a hot topic, indeed. It is for a reason.

    I believe that every person knows this is wicked, whether they admit it or not. It is not for us to play God or choose when life or death occur.

    Who is the Author and Finisher of life? Man or God? What makes a man so fit to decide who should stay or who should go, or when or how or whatever? That is foolishness.

    For example:What if some doctor tells you that your child has Downs Syndrome, and you could terminate it..would you? Have you met a Downs. child? What makes them any less human than you? If you asked them if they wished their mothers murdered them, what do you think they would say? I honestly can not believe women actually get that test and then choose to murder their own baby.

    I know of a girl who knew her unborn baby had heart troubles, and it was bad. She had to fly to a special hospital at the end of her pregnancy so they could deliver her and do immediate surgery on her baby. Baby had the surgery and basically many other problems. About a month later, the baby died in the arms of her parents and it is amazing to me that those same parents would do it all over again. There was a purpose for that baby. They chose to sanctify human life, though all the pain and heartache and grief...... it is not up to us. The Lord allows things for His glory and to at times test us. That baby would not have been spared to be killed in the womb, that baby probably has changed many lives, just by being here for a short time.

    Our nation is going to see the wrath of God like never before, and all this innocent blood is going to be crying out, and the punishment of this evil is going to be beyond anyones imagination.

    These "Doctor's" should be stoned or hung. Same for the mothers and fathers who kill their own flesh.

    Sorry to rant......I am so saddened over this issue and we need to be a voice crying out over the innocent lives who are taken by selfish, proud, sick people.

    Jessica

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  22. "(first year medical student,) I can tell you with some level of authority". HA! what authority. So far you you seem to just be another ignorant FJ hag that is defending murder. I see you already have the "I am better and smarter than you" attitude that doctors have.

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  23. I now see how stpuid and retarded I sound. Abotion is muder!

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  24. Mariam, thanks for the vote of confidence. However, I am doing very well and considering difficult it is just to get into medical school, I don't think I'm very likely to fail out.
    I don't believe the way I think is depraved, but I totally and absolutely respect your opinion that it is. I will say this, though- throughout the pregnancy, a fetus is anesthetized. It moves in response to stimuli, but does not feel pain the way a baby that has been born does. And if there was no hope for my child-to-be and what time he did spend out of the womb would be wracked with complete and utter pain, then I'd do anything I could to save him from that. It's not about wanting a perfect baby- nothing in life is perfect- it's about having to make the best possible decision for that baby in that circumstance. And until you've been there you can't really judge, and I hope with all my being that none of us will have to ever be in that situation. But if you ever are, I want you to be able to make the best choice and do what YOU feel is right. Myself, I'd risk an eternity in hell to save my child a day of hell. Whether you would or wouldn't is your call, but what do I know.

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  25. THANK YOU for casting light on this very important topic.
    This is sick but when I was pregnant and our doctor was having his 'Babies You Should Abort' talk I told him with a straight face that I would want to abort a left-handed child. He became very offended that I would imply left handed people are less deserving of life. I assured him I was being sarcastic and DH and I reminded him for the seventh time that we are Catholic so we might as well just skip the screening.
    Hey, at least I figured out where his line is.

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  26. "The world does not need sweetness and light, it needs people who are willing to open the Bible and share the gospel."

    AMEN!!!!

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  27. As an Australian, I've heard about this article a few times and the version you have leaves out the worst parts! I hope you'll do another post to let people who don't read comments know how sick this woman really is, you've only scratched the surface.

    Now firstly I don't know the case personally but our local papers are giving the impression that the child would have lived, but needed years of operations. I got the distinct impression it had more to do with the cost and trouble of medical care, not with the risk of dying after birth.

    And secondly, the reason it's blown up is the parents are seeking compensation. Why? "...the heartache of giving birth to her sick baby.”

    Oh that makes me angrier than anything. She had to have a c section because by the time they found out they got the wrong one it was too late for an abortion, and she's suing for the trauma of birthing a sick baby? Women do it every day, and WANT those babies, it's taking away from the mothers suffering because their babies are sick and they actually care, this woman is just traumatised because she went through a c-section. Or maybe because she saw her baby was a real baby as it died, ALIVE and OUT of the womb, a baby by all definitions, as I doubt it becase stillborn as it was removed from her body.

    How can denying life saving medical care to a premmie old enough to be saved be ok, but refusing medications or vaccines for your child is sick and wrong and you can have the child removed from your care. Where was child services, they should have taken the rights from the 'parents' and ordered the treatment. They're more than happy to do it when someone has the childs best interest at heart.

    Here's the article I am referencing above with the full quote regarding her trauma - http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8379299/dead-twins-parents-have-compensation-rights

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  28. Dear Zsu, so much hate and anger causes premature aging.

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  29. For "Jane" ~ It is obvious that YOU do not understand the word "pervert" or what it means to be "perverted"

    Aside from "sexual perversion" (sodomites, child molesters..etc) the term "pervert" means to turn away from what is morally right.

    Our (as Christians) sense of morality comes from God, not the world we live in. So YES, the term "pervert" perfectly describes someone, who thinks it is ok to murder defenseless babies in the womb.

    ...do buy yourself a dictionary.

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  30. Dear Zsuzsanna, I was just wondering what you think of natural IVF for women who have blocked fallopian tubes? I hear your argument about eggs/embryos being discarded during conventional IVF.

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  31. Marley, given your abysmal grammar and spelling, I would be very surprised if you got through medical school in the US.

    I have had six babies. All delivered by MDs. They do not agree with you. Of course, as a first year medical student, you know all, certainly more than doctors with 30+ years of experience.

    Please, I beg you, go into dermatology.

    in His peace,
    Miriam

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  32. People like to bring up elderly relatives as a refutation of the decision made to abort a grievously ill fetus, who, if born would do nothing but suffer until they mercifully passed away. "You wouldn't kill grandma, would you?" the argument goes. However, I would. If I knew my grandmother, whom I love dearly and who helped raise me, was mentally gone, and that the rest of her life would be filled with agony, I would chose to stop all life support. In the same way, a fetus in it's mother's womb is on life support, provided by the mother. In the end, it becomes her choice to end life support. I hate the idea of "convenience abortions." But a mother who chooses to spare her child a life of agony? How is that different than a daughter who chooses to spare her mother months of agony on a ventilator, with a rectal and urinary catheter, being fed through a tube, living in constant pain and unable to communicate. I know I would rather be dead and in the loving arms of God than have my life dragged out unnecessarily. How is agony the prolife choice? Why not release a child destined, not for life, but for a few hours or days of unrelenting agony to the loving arms of God?

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  33. I pray for abortion/reduction to be abolished. The book, One Race One Blood(previously titled Darwin's Plantation) by Ken Ham(answersingenesis) and A. Charles Ware blames evolutionary thinking on colonial slavery in America and today's "slaughter of millions of unborn" babies who are considered "not fully human" like the Aborigines,etc. were thought to be by the evolutionists. Thank God for men and women who get angry like William Wilberforce(biography at keepersofthefaith.com-Freedom Fighter) was in the 1800s. -Taryn

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  34. I agree. Hate and anger causes premature aging. How will it feel when people to start complimenting you for having all the grandkids out with you?

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  35. I cannot believe that this happened in the state and country that I live in! :/
    This sounds like something out of America, not Aussie!
    Do you know which hospital it was in? Better not be the one I had my last baby at. I'll never be going there again! In fact, I want to know which hospital it is to boycot it purposely. I don't want any 'doctors' working on my children, Hubby or I who cannot see that abortion is murder in a white coat, and that they should QUIT their profession rather than commit murder!!!
    Sick, stupid, twisted, world.

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  36. Zsu, as much as I hate abortion as you do, I could understand the cause of it; in the old days, if a woman had a child outside of wedlock, they would stone her to death and her illegitimate child. A Woman in those days had no choice but to kill the child within her. Women were seen as property, and according to one theologian of the times, Women had no souls.

    Also, it was said by an Ancient Christian Priest, that before the 5th month of pregnancy, the child has no soul.

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  37. Mariam, I am not claiming to know more than a doctor with years of experience. I am saying that, as someone who is at least on the cusp of knowing how this whole, "Human physiology and development" thing works, that I can say with some level of authority that a fetus does not feel pain the way a breathing, living baby does. And that I would absolutely do whatever I had to do to save any baby of mine from a short, miserable life wracked with pain, up to and including letting him go while still in the womb so that he never had to suffer.

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  38. @nick they also used to say the world was flat. Lol. We've established that was incorrect too!

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  39. While I found what that couple did in Australia completely disgusting, especially at 32 weeks pregnancy, I would never condemn someone for deciding that an abortion is the best choice for them in certain situations.

    Do not judge someone until you have walked a mile in their shoes.

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  40. i am about to vomit after reading this! i can't grasp the evil sickness in these people! killing a baby is never acceptable!!
    good ole fjers- at it again. when will they learn? (on judgement day!)

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  41. I think that it's interesting to note that in the Bible, the penalty for murder (death or exile according to Exodus 21:12) is much more severe than the penalty for causing a miscarriage (a fine according to Exodus 21:22). If abortion is murder, then why doesn't the Bible treat it as such?

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    1. I know this is nearly 2 years later, but I'll write it in for anyone reading this at a later date. Exodus 21:22 does not refer to miscarriage, but "causing premature birth were there is no harm (or no harm follows, some say no mischief follows) to mother or child", the man that hit her will be fined according to the judge and the husband. It does not refer to miscarriage at all in any of the translations that I've looked at.

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  42. Luk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

    Luk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

    These verses show that a baby is a life even in the womb. Try to justify it how you want, but deep down you know what you are doing is murder! You just try and convince yourself otherwise so you don't feel guilty. I don't understand how you see this post as hateful. If you found out about someone mass murdering babies in your neighborhood, would it be hateful for you to get upset at the killer? Again you people trying to defend murder sound so stupid. It is about having the perfect baby to most people. I have heard of many abortions being done because it was a boy and they wanted a girl, or the other way around. Lots of children are killed with down syndrome.That is exactly what they are saying, if their child isn't perfect, they don't want them and kill them. Their is no justification for this. I'm sorry some of you have been brainwashed into thinking a "fetus" isn't a life. Until around the 1960's such an idea would have been outrages! Fetus means- little one. All your defenses for murdering babies are just horrible. You CAN NOT defend murdering Innocent children, so please stop! It is not about what you feel is right, where to people get the idea they can be God and decide what is right or wrong. It doesn't change, it is the same for everyone. GOD has already decided murdering babies is wrong!

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  43. This video shows where the evils of birth control and abortion come from. The fonder of plan parenthood thought black people and poor people should not live. So if you are black and support plan parenthood, know that they started plan parenthood to get rid of your race. Sounds horrible doesn't it, it's true!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEja-1emRic

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  44. I have known people that doctors told them their child had a birth defect, and where urged to kill the baby. They refused. The baby was born in perfect health, the doctor had been wrong! I wonder how many babies are killed that have nothing "wrong" with them. Doctors are not right 100% of the time, they are human and make mistakes. I have heard the leading cause of death in the U.S. is malpractice, I believe it!

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  45. I do not think you understand what the word "pervert" means. But then again, reading this blog, I'm pretty sure you don't understand a lot of things.-

    If you think killing babies is ok, you do have a perverted mind! You need to look up what it means, you just sound stupid.

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  46. Thank you again for the concern, Mariam- I will keep you updated. As I look at my grades now, I have an A in Gross Human Anatomy, An A in Organic Chemistry,a B in Basic Immunology, and an A in Basic Micro-biology. I assure you, my reading comprehension and writing skills have proven more than satisfactory so far. In fact, if you want my email address, let me know and I can see if Zsuzsanna will be willing to pass it on. I can send you all my term papers and notes for you to review weekly, since you're obviously a licensed physician, to be such an expert on what it takes to make it.

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  47. Marley, I have absolutely no desire to help you become a murderer. Enjoy biochemistry!!

    BTW, it's MIRIAM not Mariam. Read much?

    in His peace,
    Miriam

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  48. Funny how people from a hate site are accusing you of being hateful lol! They hate you for being hateful, why can't they see the irony?!!

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  49. Isn't there a video called, The Silent Scream? In the book, What Darwin Didn't Know the author, Geoffrey Simmons,M.D. says that "we do not progress through a fish and amphibian stage. There are no gills or fins"-as was taught in government high school history books for years. That chart was made up. I recommend, Evolution Exposed:Biology($16) at answersbookstore.com. I also recommend Abeka's(KJ) home education books. The Bible teaches that the earth is a sphere(circular)- Is.40:22KJ. -Taryn

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  50. Szuzsanna - You sound so angry, arrogant and judgmental. If I were not a Christian I would want nothing to do with your God. However, I am a Christian, and even though I disagree with almost everything you say - particularly the hateful, incorrect, bigoted, just-plain-wrong, ignorant, distorted and nasty parts - I am a Bible-believing Christian who is just as saved as you are. A few years ago when I was infertile, your claim that your fertility was God's reward to you, or that your blessings came to you because of some kind of merit, was painful to me. A word of warning: pain comes to us all; it rains on the just and the unjust alike. If you continue to claim that good things in your life are things that you earned, you will suffer all the more when pain and loss come to you. (see: Job)
    Perhaps in heaven we will come to agreement; otherwise I hope that heaven is a very big place, so that we may avoid one another for all eternity. All joking aside - I send up many prayers for your peace. Your writing is so very angry and hateful and I hope you will allow God to heal your broken heart. and p.s. to all who will write angry, hateful responses, don't bother - I have had enough hate and anger for one day, and I won't be back to this blog anytime soon.

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  51. Many of us are "ignorant" of the bible, because we are adults and stopped believing in fairy tales years ago. Whatever helps you sleep at night!
    I do not regret my abortion AT ALL! It was me or it. I win!

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  52. Marley, your grades mean nothing when you still believe that a baby growing in the womb is just a fetus and not a baby. You think you are an authority because you are in Med school. I have just seen some remarkable pictures of my grand-daughter who is 16 weeks in her mother's womb. Every detail of this baby's body is visible including the fact that like her big sister, she has a great deal of hair on her head AT 16 WEEKS IN THE WOMB. You can see all of her perfectly developed fingers and toes, you can see her little fist curled up bye her face. You can see that she has her mother's nose and already looks so very beautiful. She is not a fetus, she is a living human being. I saw her sister's ultrasound at 12 weeks, I saw her tiny heart beating. She was not a fetus either she was a tiny living baby. You are very ignorant. Knowledge without wisdom is just useless information.

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  53. Okay, while I agree that it is not my right to judge anyone. I do not think a woman, (Zsuzsanna, in this case..), posting her opinion on HER blog about a certain subject is a judgment. I am a special education teacher and I, too, find this story alarming. I have taught the children who were "not going to make it." They were born healthy, happy babies. And I agree, totally, with you Zsuzsanna that if the baby is sick, it won't live. I certainly do not want to make that decision. And obviously things can go WAY WRONG! Killing the "wrong baby!" UGH! How does the doctor sleep?? Good post.

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  54. And God chose you to judge because you are...who?

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  55. This post reminded me of the book-Unholy Sacrifices by Mary Pride and a co-author. Chapter 13 is about the killing of unborn infants. Page 115 has a section-Yes, He's screaming,but he doesn't feel it-about surgery done on preemies and newborns without anesthesia. Some nurses get upset about this belief of pain perception in newborns according to this section of the book. Has anyone noticed how many celebrities have twins? -Taryn

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  56. Exodus 21 has an obvious answer-abortion is murder- but a miscarriage sometimes cannot be proved to have happened due to the assault. That chart of a child's development in the womb was in high school biology(not history as my previous comment mistakenly was typed) books. -Taryn

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  57. You are a deluded bigot!

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  58. Taryn; regarding the abnormally high rate of celebrities having twins. Yep, I've noticed that for a while now. . . Hollywood's always been cesspool of NWO puppets. I remember hearing of a silent screen star who got her appendix removed four times. It's devestating how many innocent babies are sacrificed to Molecule for fame, image, convenience, etc.

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  59. Leading causes of death: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lcod.htm

    As for malpractice, what I could find were about 300,000 instances of malpractice on hospitalized patients/year with about 9% resulting in deaths. That's hardly a "leading cause of death" in this country. Please stop spouting things that can be easily verified.

    That goes for the information on Sanger, too. Look up the real information on her; not what someone with an agenda wants you to believe.

    Christine

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  60. Oh, and Taryn, clarify the celebrity and twins comment for me? Not following, unless you're tying that with IVF, celebrity usage (and denial) which isn't a great secret.

    Christine

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  61. I have to agree with Sarah. Your anger is completely out of line and unjustfied. I also hope and pray God will heal your angry and broken heart.

    I understand you yourself once used to use birth control...did it not ever occur to you that you are cruely judging and calling people "perverts" when you yourself had your own form of "interfering with God's work". Just because good things happen to you does not mean they were earned by God's grace. May you find peace with whatever it is you are so angry about, I also will not be back anytime soon.

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  62. A.N. you believe quite vehemently that a 12 week old fetus is a "baby", and I while I respect your right to hold that view, I have a hypothetical question for you.

    If you were in a burning building that had a 12 week old fetus in one room and a 6 month old baby in another room, and you only had time to save ONE of them, which one would you save? Why? Think about your reasons carefully. Is there any difference between the two "babies" and if so, what is the difference?

    To take the hypothetical a step further, what if there was a group of FIVE 12 week old fetuses in one room, and just one 6 month old baby in the other. Which group/individual would you choose to save? Why? If the fetuses are babies, morally equivalent in every way to the 6 month old, it would make more sense for you to save the group of fetuses and allow the baby to die.

    This is a hypothetical scenario as obviously the fetuses could not survive outside their mother's womb in real life, hence this is just a moral thought experiment, not something that could happen in reality. But your answers to each question may give you some insight into whether you truly regard a fetus as equivalent, in EVERY relevant way, to a baby or child. They are certainly on the road to developing into a human child, but they are not there yet.

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  63. Why is everyone talking about Zsuzsanna "judging"? She is not. She is stating facts. If I say it is hot in the summer am I judging?

    The problem, of course, is that Zsuzsanna is stating facts no-one wants to hear. Hence the "you evil, judgmental woman!" There is also no anger or arrogance in the post. This is a classic example of "shoot the messenger." Examine your hearts and minds and see where all the vitriol you are spewing is coming from. Then pray. And pray more. We are all inadequate, but some have the courage to speak the truth. Some have the courage to hear it.

    in His peace,
    Miriam

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  64. "Self-inflected infertility"??
    "Scum of humanity"??
    "Monsters"???
    And then in the very same post you discuss your faith and call yourself a Christian??

    My jaw literally fell open. Is this the model of "love thy neighbor" that you give your children?

    I have never read such a mean-spirited, vile blog like this one. I am very, very sorry I followed the link to this. I have never posted on a blog where I don't personally know the author, but I am so completely shocked that I felt compelled to do so.

    It's your blog, and you are certainly entitled to post your opinions on matters, but when you start blasting specific other people you lose that right.

    As several other comments have pointed out to you, you really need to stop judging others unless you have been in their shoes.

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  65. Ugh, I meant MOLECH above, not Molecule! Silly auto-correct.

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  66. @actualperson that doesn't work as an argument. Ecause the 12 week old fetus is inside a pregnant woman. So your question has to be do you grab the pregnant woman with the unborn baby inside her womb or the six month old baby in the other room?
    First of all, there is no greater love than to give your life for someone else. You should die trying to save all of them!
    Second, just by wording it as a 12 WEEK OLD fetus, you admitting it's living. It's aging. It's a life.

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  67. Mark Evans is a piece of work. I've written about him myself. His advice has coerced many, MANY triplet moms to selectively reduce their pregnancies when they could have successfully carried, in order to cover up the failures in the fertility clinics.

    One of the good things that has happened since I had IVF eight years ago is that the fertility doctors are no longer implanting so many embryos. When I did it, it was normal to implant three. Now they only put in one or two at most, so we are only really seeing triplets now when one embryo splits, resulting in a set of identical twins and a fraternal. Mark Evans isn't going to have a lot of business anymore.

    I put in FIVE!!!! and only ended up with triplets but my doctor strongly suggested reduction. In fact, we signed an agreement that we would reduce the pregnancy if we became pregnant with more than twins. So we went straight over to the peri and I never even went back into my fertility doctor's office. I figured he did his job, he got me pregnant, and then I fired him. Getting pregnant with high order multiples is a big No No for fertility doctors, so if they can get you to reduce, it doesn't show up in their statistics.

    At my 18 week u/s, my peri noted that my triplet son had markers for Down's Syndrome and they suggested getting further testing in the event we wanted to reduce him. At 18 WEEKS. I turned down their offer. The markers were on his heart and he was born with a ventricular septum defect, which is a hole in his heart. It closed on its own before he was 18 months old, so I guess it's a good thing we IGNORED THAT ADVICE.

    I've been very lucky to have somehow made the right choices even when I've had an enormous amount of advice and pressure leading me in the wrong direction!!!!! Other people have not been so lucky, like those twin parents.

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  68. OMG. I read that article after I commented. They terminated their 32 WEEK baby? That's practically full term in my circles. I am absolutely speechless. That is the absolute height of selfishness. Absolutely sick. They get exactly what they deserve. Sickening.

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  69. Gen2revztruth, I specifically said it was a moral thought experiment and that it wasn't possible in reality. It's designed to help you examine your own thought processes critically and understand if you genuinely believe a 12 week old fetus - or for that matter an 8 cell embryo - is the equivalent of a baby.

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  70. Wow as I read your post I was left feeling sad. Then as I read the comments, well now I'm really sad.
    I find it rather distasteful that Christian Women, well I presume a lot of the posters are Christian from their referal to God, that you should all be so Judgemental of others, their comments and feelings. God does not preach such nasty sentiments of others. In fact I feel if he was doing as I have done and read some of the comments he would also be sad.
    Each woman has the right to decide what is right for her. Not that we all agree, but what is right for her and her alone. I agree that the pregnancy reduction seams on the surface awful and something I'm not sure I could do, but I have not walked a mile in those Womens shoes and for them I'm sure they made their decisions on what they felt was right for them and their feotus/'s at that time.
    It sure has become a sad, sad world.
    God teaches love and tollerance of others. Please, Please love each other even if our oppinions differ.

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  71. My pastor's wife just had her baby at 33 weeks. Nearly 6 pounds and otherwise completely healthy. She had her BABY at 33 weeks because that's what it is. Not a fetus. To even contemplate killing your child at this point of development is absolute madness - I'm not even trying to argue for 8 weeks of pregnancy. These children were 100% viable BABIES, it's just that one of them wasn't a perfect example of the human specimen. Margaret Sanger, Hitler, anyone?

    Everyone saying "don't judge", "walk in their shoes first" you're just as insane. Did you even read the article? 32 weeks!! Many twins are BORN at this stage because they're VIABLE! Do I have to have killed someone myself to think murder is wrong? Do I have to have been a thief to think theft is wrong? Do I have to have been an adulterer first to think that's wrong? No. Some things are just WRONG and calling them such is not judging, it's calling a spade, a spade. Zsu did use birth control though (so did I at one point) and now she CONDEMNS it (so do I). That's called LEARNING FROM YOUR MISTAKES. So half of you want her to walk in another person's shoes...and the other half tells her to be quiet because "well you used birth control too". Which is it? Either she has to do something herself to talk about it or not, you can't want it both ways. Hypocrites.

    I'm also shocked by the lack of outcry from the "pro-choice" crowd that these infertile women didn't just adopt rather than go through IVF repeatedly only to kill the babies they so desperately sought to conceive. After all, isn't that the cry of every pro-choicer to every pro-lifer - "why don't you adopt?" Here are the PERFECT adoptive parents - obviously they have a lot of money to go through repeated IVF and then pursue reduction, and they REALLY want children and obviously their (lack of) moral fiber is more in line with the pro-choice crowd anyway...yet they're suspiciously silent in calling for THOSE people to adopt. Pro-lifers NEED to adopt, but these folks can just go on their merry way conceiving and evacuating/reducing fetuses until they get just the right one they were looking for. (Or worse the "Holy Grail" of the American 2-child family as it was put. Gag. Like the 2nd girl you have is worthless. What a completely SEXIST view. I thought we left those archaic views in the 50s.)

    Monstrous hypocrisy.

    ~A

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  72. One more thought - my pastor and his wife were told early in their pregnancy that their son had a serious birth defect and would require months of hospitalization and several surgeries after birth to have a chance at a normal life. He was born at 32 weeks nearly 6 pounds and 100% healthy. I'm sure one day he'll be glad they didn't decide to just kill him instead.

    ~A

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  73. You are one sick woman, lady. On one hand, you profess to be a religious woman, but on the other you play God by judging others whom you should love unconditionally. The God I know and celebrate is the only one to judge. Not you with your reptile sized brain. I'm ashamed of you and your vicious vitriole. I'm pretty sure God is ashamed of you too.

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  74. Sadly Zsuzsanna, this is what our world comes to when we take God out of the picture in our collective conscience.
    Let's all put our ear plugs in, squeeze our eyes shut and pretend we don't know God is right there watching our every move, listening to our every thought.
    Millions and millions of people march around like this and straight into hell.
    Jesus is the ONLY way to be saved.
    Jesus is the ONLY solution to this insanity and sickness that has infected our world.
    There's a cool bumper sticker out there that says this,
    'Jesus IS coming Back! ...and He's coming back MAD!'
    So true. Judgement is coming.

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  75. @Michelle S I wouldn't say that was luck, I'd say that was the hand of God on you, keeping you from doing a terrible thing. He has a plan for you and the lives of your precious children you kept and now no doubt adore! :)
    Praise God your little boy's heart got better too! That's also called God's doing. :)

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  76. Some things that are interesting: 1) Abeka's 7th grade science textbook states that a preborn baby's heart starts beating between 3-4 weeks. 2) The Dionne quintuplets were born in 1934 two months premature and they all survived 3)We left our large support group for children with type I diabetes(type I is not caused by diet) because they were pro-research with pancreas cells from aborted babies. -Taryn

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  77. You are such wise woman. You are a great example of a true Christian. I wish more Christians had hearts like you. Your home life must be heaven on earth. Such, a sweet, sweet spirit. God bless you, I pray all your daughters turn out just like you, and son's like your husband. That would truely make this world a better place. God must be so pleased with you, thats why your life is so awesome. Keep up the blog, it's great to hear all about your life. Especially the way you shop, and go on outings with those precious children. I pray Gog blesses you with many, many more children to train up & homeschool. Maybe like the Duggar's...it's so cute.

    Sincerely,
    Stephanie

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  78. Could everyone please stop with the so-and-so was told their baby was going to die and he/she was fine stories. Seriously. Unless you have first hand account, you don't know what was said. Take Michelle's story above. What she SAID was, the doctor found a soft marker and gave the option for further testing, she declined. It got tuned into, in a subsequent comment, GOD PREVENTED YOU FROM DOING SOMETHING TERRIBLE TO YOUR BABY BECAUSE THE DOCTOR WAS WRONG. No, the doctor wasn't wrong, the doctor was giving her (the correct) options. They made the choice that was right for their family.

    My daughter had a soft marker in her brain for Trisomy 21. That was it, nothing but a marker. What the doctor SAID was, there's a couple of cysts, there's a slight association with a fatal trisomy, you have the option of pursuing an amnio If YOU WOULD LIKE, but with everything else looking completely normal, the chances are your baby is fine. Those were our options.

    What my husband, who was in the same room listening to the exact same conversation HEARD was: Your baby has something wrong with her brain and is probably going to die. Thus when she was born just fine = miracle. Except, not. It went, actually, exactly like the doctor said (we didn't do the amnio).

    Guess which one of us is a doctor and which one of us panics at the sight of doctors?

    Christine

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  79. As your husband is a pastor, the following should not be new to you:
    "Judge not lest ye be judged"

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  80. What a sick world we live in where people defend murdering children because they are not perfect. Most abortions are not because the baby will be in pain. A lot of the time doctors are wrong about a baby having health issues in the womb. Please accept your child even if they are not perfect. What happens when they are 2 and become autistic? Are you going to kill them then? No? Why not, it is no different than killing a baby. A baby with a heart beat growing inside you. How can people be such monsters! What has our world come to? Hitler would be right behind this stuff. This is no different than what Hitler did.
    -Jenny

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  81. MIRIAM, I seriously doubt you could asssist me in any way, shape, or form. I was being facetious in my offer to email you my notes. Also, I'm pretty certain that Oncologists don't murder anyone. But thanks for showing far more hatred, venom, and vitrol than anything this "FreeJinger Hag" has spewed your way. I'm sure Jesus would be proud of you.

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  82. I only hope God can prevent heart attacks and strokes for you, as with the way you stress out over things like this, you're on your way to such diseases.

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  83. I wanted to answer the "burning building" question.

    Under the hypothetical framework that the fetus/s would have what they needed to continue to develop after their rescue...

    I would not have a second thought before rescuing the nearest person that was to hand -- either the fetus-baby or the born-baby. Another thought never crossed my mind. I honestly had to question why this would be considered a challenging or thought provoking scenario at all.

    Why would I do that? Because to me it's not an intellectual idea that a fetus is a person -- it's actually the way I view the world. It's actually the way I think of people.

    I could no more imagine myself saying, "A fetus is not a person." Than I could imagine myself saying, "A German is not a person." or "A disabled person is not a person." I simply don't have a moral category for 'sub-human'. We are all people -- no matter how small.

    If I could rescue a group of 5 people as easily as rescuing one person, I would choose the group of people, rather than the nearest person. You are absolutely right that this makes sense -- and this is what I would do.

    I am astonished at the idea that it might be considered ethical to assign 'sub-human' status to a member of humanity, simply based on gestational age -- not yet having reached an arbitrary point of human development. To call someone 'sub-human' is huge! And on to do so on the basis of age??? Does that really make sense?

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  84. The amount of spiritually blind people that are commenting on your blog, especially over such a spiritually grave matter, is astonishing!
    Frightening actually.
    All these 'they did what's right for them' attitudes. Get a clue people. God demands we submit ourselves to His way, not our own selfish ways that only leads to hell!

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  85. While I'm here I may as well tell all you 'pro-choice' people to watch the 180 movie on YouTube.

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  86. Please, no more of the same old "don't judge" comments. Anyone is welcome to judge anytime whether or not I have murdered my own children (I haven't). So there, I have every right to judge murderers.

    The burning building scenario has been inducted into the "Stupidest Comments" hall of fame.

    Christine, of course there is no sense arguing with you. For the sake of others who read here, let me share the following story: A couple of years ago, a lady in our church was expecting her grandson on her son's side. The mother of the baby was told early on in the pregnancy (about 4 months) that the child, based on ultrasounds, had severe hydrocephalus ("water on the brain"). The doctors ordered high-level ultrasounds and other tests, always with the same predictions: the baby has severe damage, will die in utero, and on the slim chance that it would survive, it would die at birth. Even the most optimistic doctor said at best, if the baby survived (which they did not think it would), it would have irreparable, severe brain damage.

    The mother did not heed the unrelenting admonitions to abort the baby.

    The baby was born PERFECTLY HEALTHY. He had some mild swelling a the base of the neck from a very mild excess of cerebrospinal fluid, which required zero intervention and resolved completely shortly thereafter.

    I'm sure you will find some way to disprove this story. When I told my midwife about it, she sees it go both ways all the time: people who are told their baby is perfectly healthy, only to find out otherwise at birth, and vice versa. The Bible clearly tells us that "thou knowest not [...] how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child."

    Michele S, your comment was chilling. Could you imagine having heeded their advice?? I am glad you did the right thing.

    Anyone hurling more personal insults at me for being so "hateful": hypocrite. You hate me for being hateful (which I'm not, you just don't like me condemning murder) - do you not see the irony in that?

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  87. I willingly do not take part to this debate, but I still wish to make a little comment.

    The bible doesn't forbid you to judge other people : as I understood it, it says that you should not judge if you are not ready to be judged equally.

    I don't think it's respectful to insult Zsuzsanna on her own blog : how much we could disagree with her, it's still her site. I made a point on never insulting people when I can avoid it (ie : all the time !), even more on her own place. I don't think it's respectful to insult anybody anywhere, though.

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  88. I wasn't arguing. I was trying to illustrate a point, which flew right over your head.

    Michelle's doctor said: there's a soft marker for Down's. If you would consider terminating, you should do an amnio to find out for sure. Did NOT say: Your baby has Down's! Terminate immediately!

    They decided they would not terminate (I'm assuming here) and thus did not do the amnio. The doctor did not overstate the facts; the doctor was not wrong. The doctor took what they knew and presented the options: 1. proceed with further testing to rule in or out a trisomy which would possibly lead to another decision to be made at that time, or 2. do nothing. They chose 2.

    They didn't not heed the bad advice. There's nothing chilling about her story. That's how medicine works.

    Thus, my daughter's story which is very similar, except that I heard what the doctor said, and my husband heard something completely different and started telling people our baby would die. Unless you were in on all the consultations, you really don't know what was said. Period.

    Christine

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  89. Well Unknown, I disagree. I think that if you had two children in a burning building - say a three year old and a five year old - there would be no difference in people's minds, and that 50% of people would randomly choose the three year old, and 50% of people the five year old, purely from chance.

    But if you had a petri dish of embryos, and a six month old baby, I think 99% of people would choose to save the baby. And yes, I believe that's true of the majority of pro-life people as well, despite what they say. I find it hard to believe people would allow the 6 month old child to suffer and die, despite it being within their power to prevent it, in favor of rescuing a petri dish of cells, who will not suffer at all.

    What I'm saying is there is no fundamental difference between a 6 month old, a five year old, or a ninety year old person. But many people believe there is a fundamental difference between a fetus and a baby. The question becomes, when is the threshold reached? Personally I think 32 weeks gestation is well past it and termination at that point is abhorrent. IMO it's much earlier than that, well before the point of viability. But everyone has a different view on that, including you evidently.

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    1. I know you probably won't answer this, being almos two years later, but... have you ever had a scan at 12 weeks pregnant? It's a far cry from a 'petridish of cells'. I had a scan done at 12 weeks during my last pregnancy, he was very much a baby (although small), he had a face of which the outline could be seen, had arms, legs, hands, feet, fingers and toes. He responded when we prodded my belly, by kicking or rolling over. We have been brainwashed to think that a 12 week old fetus is not a baby - yeah, could have fooled me! I also honestly thought that I would first go for whomever is closest, then I would still try to save the other aswell - I'm sure I would perish trying if I was not successful. What 99% of people think they would do does not make it right - what would God want us to do - according to the Bible? Not our own made up version of God.

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  90. Truly, I first thought this post was satire it is so misinformed.

    To be so closed is a sad thing for you and your family. My heart goes out to you.

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  91. For all you "don't judge", "walk in their shoes", "everyone woman must decide for herself what is right" professing Christians, I am so sorry to inform you that you have got it ALL wrong! You may have strong morals. Morals that are respected by the world around you but the problem with morals are that they are dictated by culture and are ever changing with that culture. There is a huge difference from living a moral life and striving to life a BIBLICAL life. When making decisions Biblically there is no question. It does NOT change based on person or circumstance. There is One way-Gods way! When you first realize there is an ABSOLUTE right and wrong, it is not only easy but imperative that we continually judge lest we find ourselves straying from the true and narrow path. Although it often hurts our pride very badly when someone else points out that we have been or are still on the wrong path, it is needed for our own good and for the Glory of God. It is natural to lash out "your judging me!" at those times but thankfully God's truth remains true regardless of what we think or how we feel.

    Zsu-I am sure there will be many people thanking you for your boldness to speak truth. You just most likely will not know about most of them this side of Heaven. ☺

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  92. To "Unknown" -- do you support the death penalty? If so, do you support it for the approximately one-third of American women who have had an abortion? (Murder for hire is morally equivalent to murder and legally equivalent in many jurisdictions.) Under your framework as described, you have to, in order to be consistent.

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  93. Jessica-
    these doctors should be stoned or hung????

    Two wrongs do not make a right. Murdering a doctor because he is performing a LEGAL abortion in our country is not a crime ( though biblically it is). I understand your frustration but by replacing one violent act with another is shameful and sad. A woman who chooses to conceive a child out of rape is trying to break the circle of violence. Just because something bad happened to her does not mean she needs to do something bad nor wish death on the person who did that to her.
    I am thoroughly disgusted with our countries fascination with violence. Don't blame the doctors for providing services people are asking for. At least they are getting it done legally. It is their decision, not yours. I don't tell you what to do with your kids, so if a non christian woman who believes that it is not a life until the child is born is her decision to go through with an abortion.

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  94. @Char blogger should have a 'thumbs up' comment option. I'd click on it for your comment! :)

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  95. I was asked, "Do you support the death penalty?"

    No, not really.

    There are a wide variety of reasons why people kill other people, and the law adds layers of meaning to murder -- degrees, manslaughter, war, war crimes... they are all quite different.

    Women have abortions often in a time of crisis, steeped in misinformation, and not really thinking about what they are doing in moral terms. These factors matter.

    Their actions are intentional and premeditated -- but their mindset and the framing of the decision are so distinct from other scenarios that I consider that the crime would need its own categorization among the many other 'ending human life' categories. Perhaps it might be equivalent to a parent who (through ignorance) neglected to provide for the basic needs of their child, resulting in death? Is that a 'death penalty' offense?

    As for providers, I think medical de-liscencing might best initial strategy to limit the participation of legitimate doctors. Criminal charges seem more appropriate for those who are committed to abortion as an occupation -- another response seems more sensible for those who might let their feelings for the plight of an adult person misguide their ethical duty towards an unborn baby.

    I have a strong inclination towards restorative justice rather than retributive justice in any case -- so I'm not driven by the idea that a 'punishment' should fit the 'crime'. I'm more in favour of broken people coming to wholeness and leaving behind the ideas that drew them into crime.

    In the case of abortion, the ideas that draw people into that unjust choice are ideas about sub-humanity. I'd like to see ideas about sub-humanity fade from civilized cultures. I'd focus my hypothetical response to it as a 'crime' towards that end.

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  96. I have no intention in getting involved in the pro-life/pro-choice, judgement discussion.
    I wanted to addres the "just adopt" comment.
    It is always those who have never been thru adoption that say that, it is always those who never had to experience infertility.

    You can't just adopt, you make it sound like a walk in the park. It is not. Aside from the 1000's of pages of paperwork, every bit of your life, relationships scruntized, social workers in your home many times, then hoping a birthmother chooses you and doesn't change her mind, or hoping the drug addicted foster child you are caring for can one day be your own only to watch them bereturned over and over to their biological mother or traveling 3-4 trips overseas, spending 50,000 to adopt a child. You cannot just adopt. Please do not make it sound so easy.
    Adoption can be so beautiful, so miraculous, but it can be also extremely hard, heartbreaking and emotionally and financially devastating. I would love to see those who think it is a cake walk to deal with a raging child with attachment disorder, or one who is so scarred from being in the system or an orphanage, they set fire to your house, try to injure your other children. These things happen in the world of adoption and foster care. They are real and they are not talked about so openly.
    The other question I have always had but never get an answer to, is if abortion is ever outlawed like many want it to me, what is the pro-life's plan to handle the system of all the unwanted children-how will you fix the foster care system in this country. How do you keep some bio moms from scamming adoptive parents out of thousands of dollars only to change their mind and "parent" and by parent I mean neglect and abuse their children so they wind up in the system being shuttled from foster home to foster home?
    What is your game plan, how will you make adoption easier, more affordable and less risky?

    Adoption was my choice and I would never regret anything, I am a mom because of adoption, but I would never condemn someone who felt this was not an option for them. I also do not believe that the job of the infertile woman is to save the unwanted babies of the world, which so many "christians" have told me to be the case.

    The pro-life christian women I speak to also do not believe in any birth control, but cannot tell me how they will take care of the babies who are born who are not wanted. Obviously in a perfect world, you dont have sex until you are married or prepared to be a good parent, but that is not the world we live in.
    I would just really like a clear cut answer as to how you will handle all the babies born should abortion be outlawed and why do people feel it is so easy to "just adopt".
    Thank you.KH

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  97. Mrs. Anderson, You should do a post called stupidest comments hall of fame, or something like that. It would be quite funny!!!

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  98. anon, if God loves everyone, why is He (according to you) going to send me to Hell?

    KH, I do not have to offer a solution to all of society's ills to say that murder is categorically wrong. Our current foster care and adoption system is extremely wicked, and it is no wonder many Christians want nothing to do with it. I will not be accomplice to government kidnapping.

    Even so, the solution is simple, because it is found in the Bible. Not surprisingly, before there was such a thing as "foster care" and "CPS", abortion was also illegal. Abortion does not reduce child abuse, it increases it. Doing the wrong thing will NEVER result in better outcomes.

    Some great laws to adopt from the Bible would be to prosecute adultery as a crime, not allow divorce, force men who get a woman pregnant out of wedlock to marry her (unless her father objects), and immediately stop all government hand-outs. People might think twice about blithely going to bed with every deadbeat that crosses their path when they have to live with the consequences of their sins (such as watch their child suffer hunger and go cold). I assure you that reality would catch up with society really fast, and we would once again have some sort of moral fiber. And I can assure you, nowhere near 3000 children would die daily of starvation and hypothermia, as they do now at the hands of abortion "doctors".

    The law of the LORD is perfect.

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  99. Christine- the problem is that people are getting too much information and because they are NOT doctors, then they make hasty decisions based on emotions, rather than sound medical science. Your point is that two people will hear two completely different scenarios from the doctor. That is totally correct. One person will hear the risks, and the other person will hear, "You are having a messed up kid now, you better get rid of it quickly or you are so screwed." even though that is not exactly what was stated. And if you really think about it, why do we go through all this extensive testing if not to present the option of termination? Is it necessary to know at 18 weeks that your baby has Down's Syndrome unless you plan to terminate? What other reason would make your situation better to know that? You can't correct that in the womb, so the only possible reason to know at 18 weeks is to have the option terminate the pregnancy.

    We had a situation with one of our family members, who were told at 22 weeks that their baby had a chromosomal defect that would cause mental retardation and medical problems. They were past the point of abortion in their state, so labor was induced, the baby was born vaginally, and they held the baby until it died. They even have pictures of the baby and then they had a funeral and buried her. I've seen the pictures and you know what? The baby looks absolutely perfect, albeit premature. She appeared to be a perfectly formed baby. It's entirely possible that she would have led a normal life and maybe she wouldn't have been retarded. They'll never know. They live every single day with regret over that decision. I can honestly say they've never gotten over it. What if nobody had ever told them this possibility existed? They would have had the baby, they would have loved her, and they would have dealt with it, whatever it had been. That little bit of information changed the entire course of their lives. We live in a time of being overly informed.

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  100. @Anonymous 10:58 AM -> I am getting sick and tired of people who tell Christians not to judge. Do you realise that by saying this you have actually judged us? Oh shut up, go, buy yourself a book about hermeneutics and exegesis and learn how to properly interpret the bible! We are only not to judge in cases when we committed the exact same sin and are unrepentent of it. An unrepentent adulterer should not judge another person for adultery for example. That would make him a hypocrite. Christians are even commanded to "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." Tell me how I can prove all things without judging?

    @The Canuck -> You said "And more people will turn to Christ if they see the love and forgiveness of Christians, not the hate."
    Bad, bad theology! So you think you can manipulate or "convince" people into believing in Christ?, This is completely impossible since according to the bible no one searches for God, nobody comes to the Father unless He draws them to himself and salvation through faith is a gift from God. He even provides us with the necessary saving faith. Salvation is a supernatural event, entirely done by God himself and nobody "decides" to get saved or contributes in any other way to his salvation. You won't high five God in heaven and say "yeah, together we made it." This is an arminian lie, based on the pelagian heresy that unregenerated humans don't have an entirely wicked heart hostile towards God.

    @Dom -> You said "What I do disagree with is the fact that you are judging your brothers and sisters in such a hate-filled manner. Do you think that God actually appreciates you calling His stumbling children monsters, perverts and irredeemable?"

    Open up Matthew 12:48 and actually read who are the brothers and sisters of Christians. The answer is: other Christians! Unbelievers are NOT our brothers and sisters. And only believers are called "children of God"!

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  101. Yes Zsu, what a great world it would be with starving children and people in unhappy marriages. Read Dickens much? "Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?" I would have more respect for your message if you and hubby would go to your local social services and adopt ONE orphan, regardless of ethnicity or special needs. I guess its easier to write blogs and criticize. Also, women have always gotten abortions . They usually risked death or severe injury. Making it legal saved their lives. Women are not animals.

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  102. Zsuzsanna -

    I can see that you are an old testament kind of girl and while I admire your belief that if all only lived by the Bible the world would be a better place, I don't see it happening.

    The Bible has been around for thousands of years. There has always been abortion, there has always been child and spousal abuse, there has always been starving children, there has always been "divorce". Maybe not in the way we think of it now, but certainly what King Henry did to his wives way his way of divorcing them.

    As far as starving children, the truth of the matter is that there are 3,000 (more than that really) children that die each and every day from starvation, maybe not in this country, but in other countries. I'm curious as to your solution.

    As far as the foster care system being all evil, it's not. It is a safe haven for hundreds of children. Yes, there are bad foster parents, but there are many more good ones.

    My husband works on the front lines in an inner city hospital. He sees kids that are so severely abused by the people that are supposed to love them the most. A two week old baby girl that was fed draino, so batter and bruised that all she could do was squeak when he moved her to take an xray. A toddler with both of his legs broken in many places with severe bruising that he got when he "fell from his high chair". A preschool girl bleeding both vaginally and rectally.

    On the other hand, he also sees children lovingly cared for by foster parents, children that these parents have adopted, children that were born with birth defects so severe that their natural parents long ago abandoned them to the system.

    I'm not advocating that these children should have never been born, just that making the point that no foster care, no birth control, no abortion is not as simple as it seems. Not everyone is meant to be a parent, not everyone is meant to have a large family. Those that want to and can take care of them - rock on. But the simple truth is that we cannot and do not take care of the children that are in this world now (and don't even get me started on China).

    By the way, the baby girl was eventually adopted by her foster family. I know this because she has to continue to visit the hospital due to long-term problems because of her injuries. Her real parents spent time in jail, but not enough in my opinion.

    Peace.

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  103. Abortion kills a baby. Fact. Moving on as there's no reason to argue a fact when silly hypotheticals are put into the discussion to try and prove falsehoods.

    Goodness, all this from a woman that has two "imperfect" children that will have medical issues all their lives save God healing them miraculously.

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  104. I hope that your children don't grow up to be as hateful as you are.

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  105. As an actual Christian, and not one who throws the name of the Lord around heedlessly just to say things that are filled with anger, hate, fear, venom, and unChristlike behavior, I must say that I am saddened and appalled at the level of vitriol that you express in so many of your posts. I wish you peace, and will pray that God will heal whatever anger and sadness you have in your heart that makes you act in such an unbalanced and unChristlike, furious manner. God's peace.

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  106. I believe abortion is wrong in any way, shape or form. I also believe that God is gracious, forgiving and loving which is how I would want to behave with a friend or any other woman who had had an abortion. I don't agree with her choice but I want to show her a God who loves her despite her mistakes....just as He loves me.

    My husband works with a homosexual man. The man knows my husbands belief in God and knows my husband is against homosexual the lifestyle but my husband talks to him and works with him as he does anyone else in the office.

    We do not water down our belief, we do not hide what we think and we share God with sinners - because we remember that we are sinners who were saved by God's amazing love and grace which is free for everyone.

    If we hate people for what they have done, they will not see a God who can love and forgive them.

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  107. This is a fairly common mistake so no need for anyone to take offence, but in the interests of those who want to improve their English, people are hanged not hung.

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  108. Zsuzsanna- Your last comment was a great one. -Taryn

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  109. Let he who is not guilty cast the first stone

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  110. Since God commands us to care for widows and orphans, I'd like to know what ZZ is doing in this regard. God's law is perfect, she tells us.

    I have adopted several times and it was not that difficult, and everything has worked out fine. I think ZZis just not interested in helping homeless kids, so she pretends there is something wrong with adoption.

    There are hundreds of homeless kids in Tempe she could be helping. She does nothing. How is that for following God's word?

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  111. I know! I was HORRIFIED when I read that story and posted on Facebook about it. How disgusting that the mom would do that to her kid. I can't believe people can do this stuff. It should have been in God's hands.

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  112. I am 100% against abortion. But, as I read your post, I am reminded over and over again of Jesus's greatest commandment - to love one another. You must have skipped that scripture because you are a very hateful person.

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  113. Stefanie, hate is a strong word. You must see the difference. God loves the sinner but hates the sin. Just as we should.

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  114. Virginia - I agree. However, name calling is hateful, in my opinion, not loving. There is scripture that talks about watching our words - wish I could recall it, but drawing a black at the moment.

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  115. God is King and He knows what is right ... it's certainly not all these ugly comments

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  116. Hey Zsuzsanna :) congratulations on ur pregnancy!! Hope u and baby are safe all the way through.
    Glad u got the mail :)
    I was wondering who u vote/d for? I'm guessing not Obama!! Is there anyone worth voting for in the US though? What do you think of Ron Paul? I don't really know anything about him coming from AUS but alot of non-obamaian's seem to like him?

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  117. You are clearly an idiot. It is posts like these that solidify my atheism.

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  118. You are entitled to your opinion on these issues. I happen to agree with you on the subject of abortion/reduction. But the level of anger, hatred and name calling in your writing is just awful.

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  119. I feel very sorry for you.

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  120. So, yet again I find myself posting to an "old" thread, it if anyone including Szuszanna has some Biblical wisdom to share with me about my question, I welcome it. I posted the other day that I only have one child, and have chosen not to try for any more because I am RH-, and my husband is positive. My query is this . . . I cannot, without medical interventions in the form of Rhogam treatments, carry a pregnancy. From everything I have been told and have read, it is literally Impossible. Therefore, though I can get pregnant quite easily and naturally, my body will miscarry (I have lost three that I know of, the doctors say it is possibly more . . . I could easily miscarry so early that I wouldn't even know I was pregnant to begin with). I finally had my son through early pregnancy monitoring and treatment. If it is God's will that my body work the way it does (and I believe that in His wisdom, it is), is it right or wrong to prevent conception? We do not use chemical or hormonal birth control, but rely on the good old fashioned barrier method. If I can't carry a baby without medical help, is that God's way of telling me that I am not meant to? And if that is the case, isn't it right to prevent pregnancies that cannot last? The frustrating thing is that there isn't really anything "wrong with me", its a blood type, like any other, not a disease or an illness; I am perfectly healthy. And with the exception of carrying a pregnancy with a positive spouse, my blood type makes absolutely no difference whatsoever in any other area of life. I love my son more than anything, I have never regretted for a moment everything it took to have him, but I feel like now that I have my precious son, I should just be grateful and stop there.

    -Rivkah H.

    P.S. Szuszanna, I admit that I was first directed to your blog a couple of years ago through random googling on a boring rainy day, and at first I thought you were well intentioned, but a little nuts. Lately I find myself reading your blog more often, and have been watching your husbands sermons on YouTube. Almost without realizing it, I got myself off the couch, turned off the TV, and cleaned my home more thoroughly than I have in a while (I'm not lazy or filthy, but I admit to leaving the dishes for a day or two, postponing the vacuuming, leaving the toilet scrubbing for another day, et cetera) all while carrying my iPad with me from room to room, listening to the sermons. I'm still not on board with you on everything, but I feel like I am learning a lot and am thinking more in Biblical terms as a result. So, to you and your husband, thank you :o).

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  121. Judgement is coming for these so called doctors. It may not come in this life but they have a big surprise coming.

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  122. I agree with this and think that IVF is wrong. Before I really knew how it worked I didn't have much of an opinion on it, but after learning exactly what happens, I think it's terrible.

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Your KINDLY WORDED, constructive comments are welcome, whether or not they express a differing opinion. All others will be deleted without second thought.