Thursday, April 22, 2010

More thoughts on warfare

Not surprisingly, every comment attacking my previous post has been from someone who has family in the military, or is in the military themselves. I have not published a single one of these comments, as frankly, I will not allow anyone to defend indiscriminate murder on my website.

The phrase "Support our Troops!" stands for unconditional support of our military, which I refuse to do. I am not saying that I think every single member of our military is evil, or that every maneuver they carry out is wrong. I am not against war or military in general. I believe, just as the Bible says, that there is "a time of war". But I believe that this should be a defensive war, not one of preemptively striking against imaginary enemies.

Both World War I and II were started because countries thought "I'll get them before they get me". Germany was responsible for the killing of approx. 6 million Jews and dissidents. I think few would argue that every single German, and every single German soldier, was personally evil and demented. No doubt, many of them were just following orders, or were unaware of the full extent of the evil that was going on. By themselves, they had to chance of standing up against their tyrannical ruler. Yet I am sure that almost anyone would agree that the German government and military as a whole was wicked and wrong, and could not be supported by any moral society.

Our American Troops so far have killed well over 1 million Iraqi civilians. People who died only because they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. In the video below, civilians are gunned down by laughing soldiers simply for being outdoors, and two soldiers involved in this have said that the acts depicted in this video are everyday occurrences of this war. Daily news reports, video footage, and photos only provide further evidence of this.

How many innocent bystanders have to be killed before it can be said: I do not and cannot support our troops? If Hitler had "only" killed as many Jews as we have Iraqis, would he have been justified, as our troops seem to be? Where is the threshold from it being a "noble" cause to where it becomes genocide?

I refuse to give a military that accepts indiscriminate murder of innocent bystanders as normal a blank check of my "support".

24 comments:

  1. 1 million Iraqi civilians? Statistics?

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  2. You definitely have some points and as an active duty service member who is also saved I can't disagree with all that you've said. I will say this though, you can still have support of troops even if you don't agree or condone what has happened and still is happening in Iraq. I've been to Iraq 3 times and I don't want to or plan to go back because there is just too much death and destruction. So, like I said...don't give the military your support but why would that stop you from giving the vast majority of troops your support? There is a difference.

    Also, the highest estimate of Iraqi civilians killed I've seen is 110,000 so unsure where you are getting 1 million.

    Huge difference between a small percentage of American troops killing civilians and German military setting up camps and killing/torturing the Jews...apples and oranges there.

    I'll pray for you and your family that God will allow your blinders to be removed. Just remember that we are all human and some of us are just "saved sinners" saved by grace through faith. You could be wrong on your outlook, pray on it...it's all I can ask.

    With that said, love listening to your husbands podcasts sermons and you guys are doing great things there in Tempe and beyond. God Bless.

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  3. Zsuzsanna, I agreee 100% with what you say. Just don't let all these haters on here get you down, they've all been brainwashed with lee greenwood songs and sean hannity. I wouldn't even try to reason with them. BTW, I'm also a conservative, but most people unfortunaley do not know what real conservatism is. They're confused with neo-conservatism which is what all these haters are. They're the type of people that cheered while Christians were being ripped apart by lions in the roman colluseum becuase they thought it was "patriotic" of them to do so. I've already tried to debate several Sarah Palin lovers, and they totally freaked out and attacked me. One man almost broke down crying when I said Sarah would make a sorry leader because she couldn't even run her own home. When I said I don't beleive women should be in leadership all the so called "conservatives" who supported her started calling me backwards and close-minded. and these people call themselves conservatives! I've never seen a brainwashing like this in my life! anyway, like I said, don't let all the trash talkers get to you.

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  4. I see you never posted my comment. Was it because I questioned your husbands congregation knowing how you feel?

    For the record, I have NO ONE in the military in my family. So, you need to get the record straight prior to make assumptions about those that posted.

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  5. Can I ask for support for your statement "the acts depicted in this video are everyday occurrences of this war"? I'd like to see that. Because the military that I've spoken to have said that was a terrible RARE occurrance and in the vast majority of cases, lives are being saved. THOUSANDS have been saved by taking away a savage dictator.

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  6. I serve in the military and there are plenty of us who disagree with the Iraq war. Call it what you want and maybe I'm going to hell for it but it pays my bills. I've never shot a soul (thank God!) and hope to never...that's why I joined the Chair err I mean Air Force. :)

    I think we went in there on false pretenses of WMD and I think it's going to become another Vietnam. In general, the American public was supportive of the war but they certainly are NOT now. I don't think putting the uniform on blindly makes you a hero. I wear it and I've never done anything that warrants that "label".

    I've been to Iraq and they don't want us there....you can't help a country that doesn't want your help. We pump millions into their infrastructure and when we turn it over to them they loot and pillage and sell everything we "give" them on the black market. Let em kill each other....their suicide bombers are doing a much better job than we're capable of.

    I believe we have ENOUGH problems on our own soil to work out rather than worrying about every other countries issues.

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  7. and you are absolutely spot on!

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  8. I just wanted to give the first commentor the stats of how many have died since we entered Iraq and Afghan. - here is a link that gives stats, her "well over 1 million" is not correct, however, the number is really high. It is sad, but I think she should have put a more acruate stat - go here, and it will give you how many have been injured and killed in both Iraq and Afghan. (these are civilian deaths, not military) http://www.unknownnews.net/casualties.html

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  9. I don't support the war. I never have. I wrote then President Bush and asked him not to take us to war.

    But there is a middle ground. I support the men and women who serve. I believe in them, and the good work they try to do in the midst of a war that even many of them don't wish to be fighting.

    I don't see supporting the troops as supporting murder. I think you're missing the middle ground.

    BTW, while my dad served in the military, it was long before I was born and he was a medic who never saw combat. He joined the reserves and the medics so that he would hopefully be able to help people.

    So, while I have family members who've served, I didn't grow up in a military family, nor have I ever been in the military. And what I disagreed with in your last post on the subject was your comment about those in the military being losers with no other options. That's flat wrong. It may be true for some people, but it's a large sweeping generalization that is factually incorrect.

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  10. Amanda,

    Thank you for your response and the link to the website. For those of you who didn't click through to it, these numbers are:

    30,000 Iraqi troops killed
    835,058 Iraqi civilians killed
    1,503,106 Iraqi civilians seriously injured

    This website says that these numbers are "at least" figures, and personally, from other reports and estimates I have read, I believe the total number of civilian casualties exceeds 1 million, but .83 million is still very, very high and not that much less than what I am saying.

    What other "war" accepts the death of almost 30 civilians and the serious injury of 50 additional civilians per 1 enemy soldier fatality as normal? Do you honestly think that with our modern equipment and training, we really have to kill 30 and seriously injure 50 just to get to one of their poorly trained and equipped "troops"? Do you seriously not see that our government is using this "war" to advance their cause of genocide, mass murder, and "ethnic cleansing" of those who won't play ball with their global tyrants?

    No Christians should be defending these actions. The same government that does not value innocent human life of those in the Middle East does not value the lives of innocent humans in the United States. They will eventually subject us to the same indiscriminate murder. At least I will be able to say that I stood up and spoke out against it.

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  11. I don't defend the war. But I don't believe those statistics, either. And I don't think that my rejection of the war necessitates rejection of the men and women in our armed forces.

    As for being a Christian. I think that what qualifies one as a redeemed believer has to do with Christ's work for us more than what we think about political issues. After all, I could be wrong, but He is not. And we can disagree on man things without changing His work for us on the cross.

    I get that you're very angry about this war. I am too! But I don't blame our troops for the war, and I won't believe the worst of them based on unverifiable statistics.

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  12. Hi,

    You and I don't agree about the majority of things, but I did want to thank you for this post. I agree with you and commend you for being brave enough to take an unpopular position.

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  13. Baptist Boy in VAApril 25, 2010 at 4:12 AM

    On supporting the troops…

    You can’t disagree with the war AND support the troops. Without troops there would be no war. Troops are the tool who carry out the policy. “They are just following orders.” Hitler’s troops were just following orders. Should the citizens of Germany have supported them? Of course not you will say. Why not? They were just “following orders.” Our troops’ job is not to follow orders. They do not swear an oath to follow orders. They swear and oath to uphold and defend the Constitution against enemies foreign and domestic. If an order is not in line with the Constitution, then they need to disobey it. This war is unconstitutional because it was not declared by Congress. If it is unconstitutional then it is illegal. Troops who honor their oath would refuse orders to deploy. This means they would get jailed, court marshaled, and kicked out of the service for refusing to follow orders. So ask yourselves: can troops who uphold their oath and follow the Constitution remain troops?

    None of you sticking up for our troops would condone the actions of Hitler’s troops, or so you say. But I say that you would. Why? Because all you say is “support the troops even if you disagree with the war,” and have never given any thought as to what the troops would have to do to for you not to support them. So if I were to ask you, “what would the troops have to do to lose your support?” You would give me a blank look because you have no idea. Because you have never decided what the line is troops would have to cross, the troops will NEVER cross a line and never lose your support. This means that if our troops get as bad as Hitler’s you will still support them. You are like a frog in a pot of water who has never decided at what temperature you’re going to jump out because it’s too hot.

    If America wants a military and standing army, then it is incumbent upon every American to establish the breaking point to which troops no longer deserve support and yellow ribbons. You need know what line the troops have to cross for you to stop saying “but you should still support the troops!” I guarantee you that whatever line you draw, the troops will cross it in your lifetime. Americans of fifty years ago would have been disgusted with our current military. Americans of 100 years ago would have been disgusted with the one of fifty years ago. And the vast majority of every American who lived prior to 1900 would have been absolutely opposed to almost every war and foreign intervention we’ve fought this past century—they are certainly rolling in their graves over the current wars.

    Myself, I never questioned my support for the troops until recently. Six months ago I decided that the line for me was the troops’ own oath. The troops swore an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution. If they break that oath, they no longer deserve my support. This means that if they carry out any order or act, or assist in the carrying out of any order or act, that does not square with the Constitution, they lose my support. That is my line. And to my knowledge, no government official, general or soldier is even trying to make the case that our current conflicts are Constitutional.

    Boiling point is the line that this frog has drawn. And the water hit 212 degrees a long time ago. I no longer support the troops.

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  14. Baptist Boy in VAApril 25, 2010 at 4:12 AM

    I rarely check Zsuzanna’s blog but my wife does often and told me about the war post, so I wanted to respond to some of the comments. This is only my 3rd comment on this blog ever (last one was in “Babies are People Too,” Dec 09. Zsuzsanna, you asked if I would make a guest post on your blog about vaccines. I will and will try to get it to you in the next few months!).

    Before I begin, I want to state that I used to be one of the biggest proponents of these wars. I was the guy who pulled the car over and enthusiastically argued with two dozen anti-war protesters. I was the guy who utilized the opportunity of my speech class to tell my classmates why the War on Terror was a good thing. Humans, especially Americans, don’t like to admit when we are wrong. I now realize that I was wrong.

    Muse Mama, civil rights were not given to us by the Bill of Rights. The Constitution and Bill of Rights protects rights we already posses—inalienable rights granted to us from our Creator. You are right that there are those who would happily take them away from us. However, as Iraq War veteran Adam Kokesh often says: “the greatest threat to our liberty does not come from the deserts of some far off land, but rather right here at home.” In other words, the biggest threat to your life and liberty comes from men who wear suits and ties and roam marble halls in our nation’s capital, not from men who wear robes and ride camels as they travel to and from mud huts and caves.

    The Founders knew this. They knew that our own government posed the biggest threat to our rights. You say that without a military we would lose those rights quickly. The Founding Fathers did not even want a standing army! They thought that a military under the control of government was the biggest threat to our republic! Americans believe that without a military third world cave dwellers would overrun us. This is simply false. With no standing army we defeated the world’s most powerful empire (Britain) TWICE (Revolution and War of 1812). Zsuzsanna was correct to point out that Iraq is a training ground for future operations in America. The tactics they are learning over there will come in nicely when (not if) the troops police us here at home.

    On supporting the troops…

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  15. Muse Mama, civil rights were not given to us by the Bill of Rights. The Constitution and Bill of Rights protects rights we already posses—inalienable rights granted to us from our Creator. You are right that there are those who would happily take them away from us. However, as Iraq War veteran Adam Kokesh often says: “the greatest threat to our liberty does not come from the deserts of some far off land, but rather right here at home.” In other words, the biggest threat to your life and liberty comes from men who wear suits and ties and roam marble halls in our nation’s capital, not from men who wear robes and ride camels as they travel to and from mud huts and caves.

    Thank you for your response. It wasn't me who originally said that our civil rights were granted to us by the Bill of Rights, it was Zsuzsanna:
    As for soldiers fighting for our civil liberties, our civil liberties were guaranteed to us in the Bill of Rights, and have existed long before this war.

    I completely agree with you that the greatest threats to our civil liberties, at this point, come from within our government and not outside of it. That said, that doesn't negate that there is risk from others as well. My point was that a military is necessary to defend those Civil Liberties from outside forces that threaten it. A point to which, I believe, Zsuzsanna agreed.

    Acknowledging and addressing the risks from within should never necessitate ignoring the risks from outside of ourselves. Granted, I don't think we're doing that with this war. I'm addressing a general ideal and not this specific military action.

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  16. I disagree, I believe you can be against the war and support troops. Troops are following orders, not making policy. While there are some who are degenerates and don't follow the rules...the majority to follow the rules. Those of us that do (and especially those of us that are saved) don't deserve to be lumped into a general statement of "I don't support the troops".

    Mrs. Anderson, go back and listen to Bro. Jimenez's sermon when Faithful Word Baptist Church was just starting. Around 31:30 he talks about how people in Iraq are dying for our freedoms. For the freedom to have a Church like yours, for the freedom to speak the Truth, for the freedom to know you won't be killed for speaking about Jesus Christ. I heard an Amen from your husband...don't turn your back on the troops now because a select few decide to do despicable things.

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  17. So Dennis & anonymous...you're ok with 110,000 civilian deaths, just not 1 million?

    And if someone could please post a link to a video of a SINGLE soldier stepping up and STOPPING his fellow soldiers from shooting innocents, I would love to see that. If there are so many good soldiers out there and only a few misfits, why do we never hear about the good guys stepping up? That's right...they're just "following orders" too. If a "good" soldier stands by while the "bad, loser" soldiers kill innocents, they are NOT "good" soldiers.

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  18. Jochebed, I can't speak for Dennis or anonymous, but I'm not in favor of any civilian deaths. I'm not okay with the deaths of military personnel either, all of whom are someones child.

    But I also believe that it is sometimes necessary to fight for rights, liberty, and against evil and tyranny.

    I don't find it difficult to imagine that people step up all the time to prevent others from doing bad things. I believe it even more likely that these bad things happen very rarely and that the majority of our troops are good people, doing the job they promised America they would do.

    I would agree that standing by and allowing evil to happen is also an evil. What hasn't been proven to me is that it's a frequent or common occurrence.

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  19. Joch,

    Did you watch the video? Did you see the soldier getting the young girl out and trying to get her to safety? Do you think our media really cares to show much good stuff going on or do you think the bad stuff sells best?

    I've seen plenty of good things, but I don't sit there and tape it. Remember, I've actually lived it multiple times.

    How many "bad" soldiers did you see in that video? I heard two, the rest seemed to be doing what they were supposed to be doing.

    Read my posts again, study do some research and prayer first before posting again.

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  20. One last comment/question I would like all to consider. Especially those that quickly (and possibly without prayer) went with the knee jerk reaction to condemn all troops or put all troops under this umbrella of "I will not support our troops". Do you support those troops that are saved? Do you believe military missions that are Bible preaching, Bible believing, soul winning missions are something God wants? If you even support one troop that is saved you support the (that) troop. We (saved folks) have a brotherly and sisterly love for eachother...that should include those that are saved and in the military.

    So, do you support those troops that are saved? Think on it, reflect and pray because I'm sure if are honest with yourself and honest with God you'll come to the conclusion that you do support them.

    This knee jerk reaction to paint all military as heathens and to say you don't support the troops is unbecoming of a Christian, at the very least you should support those that are saved in the military and you should support military missionaries trying to do good work.

    In conclusion and with all that said, I believe the military life is overflowing with sin. Drinking alcohol is everywhere, fornication is everywhere, cussing is everywhere and there is a lot of death as well. I've done the prayer and I've done the meditation on specific subjects and I've done the research and this is what God has given me. I used to be part of that sinful life the military seems to expose but not anymore. I've also learned not to lump everyone into the same group either. If an IFB preacher kills someone, does that make all IFB preachers killers? Of course not. I'm not sure how much more clearly I can explain it.

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  21. Dennis,

    you are wrong.

    For one, I am under no obligation to "support" all other Christians. The Bible gives several examples of people that we should not fellowship with if they are called a brother and engage in acts such as drinking, fornication, extortion, etc.

    Secondly, of those Christians that I support, I support the person, not their profession. Or else, that would have to extend to all professions. For example, if I know a Christian who works as a mechanic, should I then say "I support our mechanics!" Hardly.

    Thirdly, no Christians should be employed (or in your case, owned) by our current government and administration, one who hardly follows and glorifies God.

    You may not personally have killed any innocent bystanders, but you work for a business that is on a mission to do just that. Maybe you are not pulling the trigger, maybe you just support and supply the people who do. I have no more respect for your job than I have for people who work at an abortion clinic, even though very few of those people are actually the ones doing the killing.

    Your example of "if one preacher killed someone, I can't just say all preachers are killers" doesn't hold water, because all preachers don't work together for the same company. Your company specializes in mass murder, and by being a part of it, you ARE guilty.

    In the YouTube clips I embedded, it was obvious that the troops in the aircraft, as well as their superiors who were giving them permission to "engage", were guilty, and it didn't seem like an unusual occurrence. ("Oh, they are picking up the body? Yeah, go ahead and engage.") Remember, two of those troops wrote an open letter saying these things were EVERYDAY occurrences.

    How you can possibly justify the murder of 1 million women, children, and other innocent bystanders is beyond me. What if that were your wife and kids, mother or father? More of our troops die from SUICIDE than from enemy attacks, to the tune of on average 18 veterans PER DAY, which shows what effects our abusive warfare is having on them.

    I will not publish any more of your comments, as there is really no point in hearing you repeat the same thing yet again. You are uncomfortable with what I am saying because it is striking a nerve with you. Nobody likes it when light is shone on their sin.

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  22. I don't know if I can hold to your logic, Zsuzsana. The purpose of the military is not to kill innocents. The purpose isn't murder, but protection of the United States. So, I have a hard time holding all military personnel responsible for the actions of the few who are unethical.

    By that logic, there is no profession, not even the vocation of motherhood, that is without those who have murdered the innocent. I'm not going to stop supporting mothers, doctors, nurses, police officers, fire fighters, postal employees, or any other profession as a whole because of those few.

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  23. Thank you for posting this Zsuzsanna. I thought I had seen a blog post sometime ago on this topic, though I had mistakenly thought it was on Kimmies blog; she directed me here instead. The reason I was looking for the post is this: I'm so sick of reading "support our troops" rubbish on Facebook, that I wanted to link to a post like this. Would that would be okay with you? If you'd rather not, then that is fine. Either way, thank you for your biblical stand on this topic!

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  24. If not for the "indiscriminate" killing by soldiers during war, Germany would probably still be run by a Nazi regime today.

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Your KINDLY WORDED, constructive comments are welcome, whether or not they express a differing opinion. All others will be deleted without second thought.